We begin our first edition of Torah Weekly - News and Halacha, with the article published in various papers about two people, one a "rabbi" and another an Orthodox Jew, who plotted to force a husband to give a GET to his wife, and perhaps murder the husband as well. We don't have to say that murder and beating people are not proper. But if the community has come to the point, not for the first time, of hearing that Orthodox people, some rabbis, have tortured people in various sometimes truly hideous ways to give their wives a GET, and now an open case of planned murder, we have to show that the Torah forbids these things, or, when the Torah permits coercing a GET. But murder?
We include in this page several posts from our other main blog torahhalacha.blogspot.com:
The first on the list is an attack on Rabbi Herschel Schachter of Yeshiva University who calls for forcing husbands to give a GET.
Friday, February 26, 2016
Rabbi Herschel Schechter Says to Beat and Even Kill Husbands Who Withhold a GETSee my brother's blog daattorah.blogspot.com of Feb 26,'16. It is about Rabbi Herschel Schechter's opinion that a husband who refuses a GET may be beaten and elsewhere, on tape, he is recorded as saying the husband may be killed. This is a refutation of this from the Shulchan Aruch and poskim. Interestingly enough, Rabbi Schechter has no source in the gemora or rishonim for what he says, and his "proofs" do not impress me. But we are here going to bring sources to show that the Shulchan Aruch and the major poskim and rishonim disagree with him completely.
HaGaon Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashev zt"l told me that any Beth Din that violates the sin of coercing a GET is not a Beth Din, and any woman divorced from it must get another GET as this GET is not recognized. That is, a kosher Beth Din must look into the matter to see if there is any way of proving that the GET is kosher, and if not, she needs another GET and may not remarry with the GET from a non-Orthodox Halacha Beth Din.
R. Herschel Shechter has called for beating and even killing husbands who won't give a GET any time the wife wants out of the marriage. Any GET that he gives is invalid, as he is not recognized as an Orthodox posek or rabbi. The same is true of "rabbi" Gedliah Schwartz who told me clearly that he sent away a couple who wanted a GET because he felt they didn't need one because although there was a proper Kiddushin and Chupa there was no Biah, a statement that shows he is a complete ignoramus and does not know that a woman is considered married without Biah but with either kiddushin using a valuable such as a ring, or a marital document. (Shulchan Aruch EH Kiddushin 26:4) Such people invent the Torah and they are not true rabbis but wicked deniers of the Torah. Anyone who gets a GET from Shechter or Schwartz, and possibly from the entire RCA, must ask a kosher Beth Din what to do.
I spoke to gedolei haposkim about this and it is clear that anyone who humiliates a husband to force a GET has made an invalid GET. This is brought down in the new Sefer Mishpitei Yisreol in the beginning with signatures of Reb Chaim Kanievsky Rav Shmuel HaLevi Wosner and many of the Israeli Gedolim. They also say that a GET from a Beth Din that violates the Halacha re: coercion of a GET is invalid.
See Rashbo in teshuvose VII:414 that a woman who demands a GET because the husband cannot be a man we do not coerce the husband "we do not put him in Nidui, we do not humiliate him, and we do not make for him physical pain." This Rashbo is quoted by the Radvaz IV:118 word for word. The Chazon Ish brings the Bais Yosef EH 154 who quotes the Rashbo, and the Chazon Ish adds it to his commentary and then rules that this is the Halacha See EH in Chazon Ish 108:12 .
And yet there are those who are desperate to twist and turn and invent and they change the words of the Rashbo "we do not humiliate him" to "we do not hit him." But the problem with that invention is that the Rashbo says three things, "we do not put him in nidui, we do not humiliate him which they change to we do not hit him, and we do not hurt him physically." Now, if the Rashbo already said we may not hit him, why does he repeat "And we do not hurt him physically." At any rate, the Rashbo that we have, the Radvaz, the Beis Yosef and the Chazon Ish all say clearly that it is forbidden to humiliate him. Furthermore, Rabbeinu Yona in Shaarei Teshuva par 139 says that humiliation is like murder. He quotes Chazal that one who humiliates another in public goes to Gehenum and never comes up. Thus, humiliation is an extreme coercion and invalidates the GET.
The Rashbo there talks about two husbands. The first husband is a regular husband and the wife does not say that he is not possible to be a husband. Rather she says that she cannot tolerate living with him. In that case the Rashbo says, "We never coerce such a husband to divorce his wife, but if he wants to divorce, he divorces, and if he does not want to divorce, he does not divorce." This language means that no coercion or pressure is possible. Rabbeinu Tam quoted in Shita Kesubose says that it is even wrong for Beth Din to advise him that it would be a good thing to give a GET, as this is pressure of some kind. However, Rashbo talks about a second husband, who is not a man, cannot please his wife with intimacy, and is commanded by the Talmud to divorce his wife. But since it does not say in the Talmud to beat him, or coerce severely, the Rashbo says "we may not put him in Niduh, we may not humiliate him, and we may not cause him physical pain." But other milder coercions are permitted, such as telling him that he is wicked for disobeying the gemora.
The Shulchan Aruch EH in hapter 77 talks about a woman who demands a GET because her husband is disgusting to her. The Shulchan Aruch, Ramo, Gro, Beis Shmuel and Chelkas Mechokake all say there in par 2 and 3 the words of the Rashbo, "If he wants to divorce he may divorce and if he does not want to divorce he does not have to divorce." They interpret this to mean that no pressure may be put on him to divorce. If so, a woman who has a GET obtained from ORA has an invalid GET because it was pressured, and not just pressured, which is forbidden for all divorces, but was produced with humiliation, which is forbidden even for somebody who is not a man and is commanded by the Talmud to divorce.
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Monday, November 10, 2014
Question - Can a Beth Din Force a Husband to Give a GET?
Question: Can a Beth Din Force a Husband to Give a GET?
Answer: A Beth Din has no power to invent an obligation to coerce a husband. However, if the husband is obligated by the Torah to give a GET or be coerced, it is a mitsvah upon a Beth Din to force the husband to divorce. However, the husband who are to be coerced to divorce are very few, such as a husband who marries a woman forbidden to him. Furthermore, a husband who cannot function in marriage is required by the Talmud to give a divorce. But if he refuses, the only coercion permitted is to tell him that he must divorce and if he refuses he will be considered wicked. But if somebody marries a woman forbidden to him Beth Din can beat him until he gives the GET and says, "I want it."
Therefore, the vast majority of divorces are when a wife tires of her husband for whatever reason, and demands a GET. In such a case, Beth Din is forbidden to coerce a GET. Furthermore, Posek HaDor Rav Elyashev zt"l ruled that such a husband has no obligation, no mitsvah, to give a GET in the first place. We discussed some of this elsewhere on this blog, about the rights of the husband.
The Chazon Ish in his work on Even Hoezer Gittin 99:2 writes, "When Beth Din demands that a husband give a GET but did not beat him with sticks, and thus obligated him against the ruling of the Torah [that does not require a coercion] does this constitute a forced GET [that is invalid]?"
The Chazon Ish writes that if a Beth Din demands a GET when the Torah or Shulchan Aruch does not demand a GET even if it has to be forced, then the GET given by the husband is invalid, for two reasons.
One reason is because the Beth Din is being forced by Beth Din, and the force of Beth Din, even the force of a mitsvah, invalidates the GET. That is, it is a mitsvah to obey rabbonim. But the GET must be given without any coercion. If the husband gives the GET because the mitsvah to obey rabbis coerces him, the GET is invalid.
Secondly, the GET is invalid because if the husband would have known that the Beth Din erred in demanding a GET, he never would have given it. He gave it because he does not know that Beth Din erred. Thus, the GET is gives is given by mistaken, and is invalid.
This is a very important point. Beth Din and Rabbonim cannot invent halochose. When the Shulchan Aruch clearly states that we do not coerce a GET and we do not pressure the husband to divorce, and rabbis and Beth Din say that husband must give a GET and coerce him with their ruling, this is a mistaken Beth Din and the GET is invalid according to the Chazon Ish.
I have spoken to prominent rabbis who have ruled about forcing husbands to divorce and I asked them their sources. It is obvious that the source was that they wanted a GET for the woman, but they had no source in the Shulchan Aruch for this, and there are plenty of sources tht say the opposite, such as the above Chazon Ish. This is a tragedy going on now that will produce in the next few years many mamzerim, HaShem Yerachem. The Gedolei HaDor for the past two generations have demanded that rabbis cease and desist with their inventions, and have demanded that coercing a GET must have the approval of gedolei Hador, but the rabbis who force divorces continue on their merry way. The children from their work will be considered mamzerim or possible mamzerim by all those who follow the Shulchan Aruch and the Gedolim.
Question: Can a Beth Din Force a Husband to Give a GET?
Answer: A Beth Din has no power to invent an obligation to coerce a husband. However, if the husband is obligated by the Torah to give a GET or be coerced, it is a mitsvah upon a Beth Din to force the husband to divorce. However, the husband who are to be coerced to divorce are very few, such as a husband who marries a woman forbidden to him. Furthermore, a husband who cannot function in marriage is required by the Talmud to give a divorce. But if he refuses, the only coercion permitted is to tell him that he must divorce and if he refuses he will be considered wicked. But if somebody marries a woman forbidden to him Beth Din can beat him until he gives the GET and says, "I want it."
Therefore, the vast majority of divorces are when a wife tires of her husband for whatever reason, and demands a GET. In such a case, Beth Din is forbidden to coerce a GET. Furthermore, Posek HaDor Rav Elyashev zt"l ruled that such a husband has no obligation, no mitsvah, to give a GET in the first place. We discussed some of this elsewhere on this blog, about the rights of the husband.
The Chazon Ish in his work on Even Hoezer Gittin 99:2 writes, "When Beth Din demands that a husband give a GET but did not beat him with sticks, and thus obligated him against the ruling of the Torah [that does not require a coercion] does this constitute a forced GET [that is invalid]?"
The Chazon Ish writes that if a Beth Din demands a GET when the Torah or Shulchan Aruch does not demand a GET even if it has to be forced, then the GET given by the husband is invalid, for two reasons.
One reason is because the Beth Din is being forced by Beth Din, and the force of Beth Din, even the force of a mitsvah, invalidates the GET. That is, it is a mitsvah to obey rabbonim. But the GET must be given without any coercion. If the husband gives the GET because the mitsvah to obey rabbis coerces him, the GET is invalid.
Secondly, the GET is invalid because if the husband would have known that the Beth Din erred in demanding a GET, he never would have given it. He gave it because he does not know that Beth Din erred. Thus, the GET is gives is given by mistaken, and is invalid.
This is a very important point. Beth Din and Rabbonim cannot invent halochose. When the Shulchan Aruch clearly states that we do not coerce a GET and we do not pressure the husband to divorce, and rabbis and Beth Din say that husband must give a GET and coerce him with their ruling, this is a mistaken Beth Din and the GET is invalid according to the Chazon Ish.
I have spoken to prominent rabbis who have ruled about forcing husbands to divorce and I asked them their sources. It is obvious that the source was that they wanted a GET for the woman, but they had no source in the Shulchan Aruch for this, and there are plenty of sources tht say the opposite, such as the above Chazon Ish. This is a tragedy going on now that will produce in the next few years many mamzerim, HaShem Yerachem. The Gedolei HaDor for the past two generations have demanded that rabbis cease and desist with their inventions, and have demanded that coercing a GET must have the approval of gedolei Hador, but the rabbis who force divorces continue on their merry way. The children from their work will be considered mamzerim or possible mamzerim by all those who follow the Shulchan Aruch and the Gedolim.
Answer: A Beth Din has no power to invent an obligation to coerce a husband. However, if the husband is obligated by the Torah to give a GET or be coerced, it is a mitsvah upon a Beth Din to force the husband to divorce. However, the husband who are to be coerced to divorce are very few, such as a husband who marries a woman forbidden to him. Furthermore, a husband who cannot function in marriage is required by the Talmud to give a divorce. But if he refuses, the only coercion permitted is to tell him that he must divorce and if he refuses he will be considered wicked. But if somebody marries a woman forbidden to him Beth Din can beat him until he gives the GET and says, "I want it."
Therefore, the vast majority of divorces are when a wife tires of her husband for whatever reason, and demands a GET. In such a case, Beth Din is forbidden to coerce a GET. Furthermore, Posek HaDor Rav Elyashev zt"l ruled that such a husband has no obligation, no mitsvah, to give a GET in the first place. We discussed some of this elsewhere on this blog, about the rights of the husband.
The Chazon Ish in his work on Even Hoezer Gittin 99:2 writes, "When Beth Din demands that a husband give a GET but did not beat him with sticks, and thus obligated him against the ruling of the Torah [that does not require a coercion] does this constitute a forced GET [that is invalid]?"
The Chazon Ish writes that if a Beth Din demands a GET when the Torah or Shulchan Aruch does not demand a GET even if it has to be forced, then the GET given by the husband is invalid, for two reasons.
One reason is because the Beth Din is being forced by Beth Din, and the force of Beth Din, even the force of a mitsvah, invalidates the GET. That is, it is a mitsvah to obey rabbonim. But the GET must be given without any coercion. If the husband gives the GET because the mitsvah to obey rabbis coerces him, the GET is invalid.
Secondly, the GET is invalid because if the husband would have known that the Beth Din erred in demanding a GET, he never would have given it. He gave it because he does not know that Beth Din erred. Thus, the GET is gives is given by mistaken, and is invalid.
This is a very important point. Beth Din and Rabbonim cannot invent halochose. When the Shulchan Aruch clearly states that we do not coerce a GET and we do not pressure the husband to divorce, and rabbis and Beth Din say that husband must give a GET and coerce him with their ruling, this is a mistaken Beth Din and the GET is invalid according to the Chazon Ish.
I have spoken to prominent rabbis who have ruled about forcing husbands to divorce and I asked them their sources. It is obvious that the source was that they wanted a GET for the woman, but they had no source in the Shulchan Aruch for this, and there are plenty of sources tht say the opposite, such as the above Chazon Ish. This is a tragedy going on now that will produce in the next few years many mamzerim, HaShem Yerachem. The Gedolei HaDor for the past two generations have demanded that rabbis cease and desist with their inventions, and have demanded that coercing a GET must have the approval of gedolei Hador, but the rabbis who force divorces continue on their merry way. The children from their work will be considered mamzerim or possible mamzerim by all those who follow the Shulchan Aruch and the Gedolim.
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